Discussion: Blacktop 20v: The road beyond 200hp

[86er]

Ok hi all let me introduce myself Im a regular on club4ag as Hatchi Freakin Roku, a name i still cant live down anyway i have a levin coupe with a blacktop 20v and megasquirt which I am still in process of finishing, this is my 3rd ae86 Im not from US, Im in the Caribbean in a country called Barbados, so anyway thats just an intro to the topic at hand.

Now everysince I got on the 20v blacktop craze and started the swap I've been troubled, when guys first started megasquirtin these I was impressed by the resulting figures and it made sense to venture this road as a stock BT with open stacks, exhaust, and MS weregetting from 140-150ish at the wheels which i thought was great something a 16v honestly needs alot of work to acheive (not saying it cant reach that level) cuz i know better havin had 2 bigports before which were relatively stock. fter "jumpin on this band wagon" i started doin all kinds of research into modding the 20v further I discovered that after market support for the 20v pretty much suscks and honestly there is a huge Gray cloud surrounding the 20v and modding it WORLDWIDE!!!! Thats what all my research has led me too I dont think people truly realise the potential of the engines, But i must admit I myself am not sure of that FULL potential either, but nly few have tried and succeeded. Some would quckly jum to say that the Japanese have preoven the limit of the 20v but my findings lead me to suspect otherwise.

Anyway the purpose of this topic is to discuss and truley try to discover the potential of the blacktop mainly, the silvertop will also be covered as it applies at this level of tuning, but until u pic down the head and start fixing it it honestly doesnt compare to a blacktop. The latter silvertop is better though and closer to Blacktop.

So firstly my findings, below i will post linnks to various forums where either people have sucessfully developed th 20v or have thoroughly tested it in terms of mods and power gains to a point

WheelsJamaica.com these guys have truley proven with what are some very lengthy topics (one 25+ pages) what a 20v blacktop is made of and how well the stock motor responses to the right mods

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...p;topic=12990.0

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...;topic=32929.40

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...p;topic=45443.0

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...p;topic=44599.0

there is a wealth of info in above links and real info instead of guessin
Now that confirms that a stock blacktop with proper velocity stacks, headers, and exhaust will produce around 140WHP now the test car is fwd which is probably why with same mods and a megasquirt people get 145ish-150whp as we have more drivetrain loss.

SO at 20% drivetrainloss people seem to average on a ae86 145whp is like 174 at crank. That to me is very impressive and motor has even been open yet.

Now 20v_KE25 on these forums has a very impressive BT

this is my KE-25 race car which is used mainly for club sprints. I bought the car for $300 through work as a trade in. it started off as a granny spec. 1200 which was quickly converted into a 4AGE 16 valve RWD with T50 and AE-86 disc break rear end with TRD lsd. Front brakes are series 4 RX7 with Saab 280mm rotors. The rears are 300ZX turbo with MX-73 rear discs. About 4 and a half years ago I decided to make the move up to a Black top 20 valve with a TRD close ratio gear set. The engine is still currently running stock ECU and has proven to be both reliable and very competitive, it hasnt lost a race in my class in about 4 and a half years and it holds the lap record for my class at Philip Island with a 1:54.33. At the recent Chasers dyno day organised by Glen (Celica RA45) it pulled out 121.4KW's at the rear wheels!! Here are some photos, doesn’t look too special to the eye but it does the job.

"At the recent Chasers dyno day organised by Glen (Celica RA45) it pulled out 121.4KW's at the rear wheels!!"

that car is pumpin out over 190crank hp when you work it out. which is impressive with short mod list, my only explaination for his figures is one the race gas and 2 the electric water pump. But hell when i think about it JAPANESE n2 cars with fully built 20vs are usually said to be 200PS or so with same race gas, usually high duration cams high comp pistons, management, steel cranks etc etc.

Here in is where my problem with the japanese 20v developmant lies

example Tysuchia's(spellin) 86 has a trd bild blacktop with full exh management, wasted spark, and i think 272/288 cams high comp miata pistons(use to have toda) and tuning tunin and they CLAIM his I AM GAY car is 170PS thats bull i dont see anyway that car could be less tha 200hp based on all figures the assuies/americans and the rst of us are gettin. Thats less than what can expect on stock motor with a Megasquirt and bolt ons.

Here is a nice link from Garage annex site where the build th 20v N2 car's egine and dyno it at various stages and with various cams(personally i still find these figures a bit short)

translated
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&am.../language_tools
japanese original
http://www7.airnet.ne.jp/annex/engin_seisakuki.htm
in the end the get about 213ps with tODA　288°9mm lift IN and 304°9mm lift EX cams and built engine

also didnt reference the guy on club 4ag who used mr.John's high rise header on a stock balcktop (no management) and got 157whp (graph was posted on club4ag a while back)
heres a pic of header on Johns car



this is still invaluable info

now I perosnally think at this level of tune figures should exel well over 200hp in te 220-230crank hp range so i cant help but think something is wrong look at this

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&am...hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Satoru Works drift ae86 20v 1600 produced 244PS thats sould more like it not sure figures of the 1800variant or the specs but if anyone has them please share i suspect they arent much different from most built 20vs in japan but maybe difference is in compression and cam lift.

I say lift becuz all the 200+ 4ag16s i see seem to run very high lift
Here
http://www.jtuned.com/content/templates/st...96&zoneid=1
the FA 16v by Hasselgren while cams are only 272 lift is 10+ and 11mm
Also I have a 86Super Tuning magazine here from japan where they cover the tec arts 16v which is 230ps also has very high lift cams in that same range, and 110mm velocity stacks on ae101 ITBS, doesnt say the compression ratio but all the tecarts cars have 230ps their drift car and n2 car and and all the cars with that spec engine have it. the show the build up of the motor in detail the magazine i will try to get some pics up.
Anywwway im suspectin that the lift has something to do with it, the only real choice in japan fr 20v cams is toda all there 20v cams are limited to 9mm lift, kelford makes some 20v cams and there highes race cam has like 10+mm lift http://www.camshaftshop.com/camshafts/view...oyota-camshaft/ and a nice powerband while still under 300degrees duration
also Cat Cams makes some aswell in europe somewhere lol
with 11mm lift 291 duration http://www.aeu86.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t...ea05872b4a6c496
waiting to see final results for this motor

hell there was even a guy on club4ag the otherday with some mild 264cams and basic bolt ons in blacktop he was gettin like 160whp which is in 190+crank region still way more that the japs these were toda cams. So I call BS on the japanese 20vs except that satoru works guy. CAN anyone please post his specs if u have them. Thanks

Now For all you club4ag people who are here now lol MR.John from club4ag who drifts blue rolla recently posted that hasselgren has built a silvertop(yeh i know what i said but like i said at this level they are even as heads wuld both be ported out etc) for Taka Aono 2007 drift car. I consider him a reliable source and Im waiting too see the mtor in this comin year and more specs. ANY WAY ITS SUPPOSE TO BE 306HP at crank. I am personnally confident about this but time will tell.

LAtsly the new valvetrain from Barry (dot Racing) no info on improvements yet but about time oversize vales were on market.

now all this is well and good but whats the secret and the truh behind a heavily modded 20v an whats the recipe to push a reliable one pass the 200mark? thanks what i want to discuss.


Now i know with Na especially parts have to work together and produce power togther otherwise u will not make full power potential so please feel free to share opinions on any thing u think i list that would not add to setup and goal of 220-240hp+ at crank

Im thinking a blacktop base
kelford race cames 298duration 10+mm lift
12:1 compression(would prefer 13:1 but how reliable i know this is is controversal issue few venture so high)
dot racing oversize valves and spings and retainers
ported head
valve angle job
100mm-110mm velocity stacks to to open powerband
to keep down cost stock crank (unless a steel one is found at good deal)
forged rods or stock(people still got issues with stock BT rods)
high rise 4-1 header with 45mm primaries and 2.5" to exhaust
crank fire ignition
what size injectors??
balanced bottem end
Any theories on the intake flow anle as in having itbs angled up to same angle as intake or closer( not sure how much this helps as the formual Atlantic motor has a straight intake)
the very same electric water pump by craig davies to elimitate the water pulley and get some lighter pullies for others
The six speed AZ6 miata box the oldskweltoy from hachiroku.net is investigating as i too like 170bhp's 6spd 20v setup.
what am i forgettin?

ok and....... GO!!

[TurboRA28]

Subscribes

[skiddz]

thats some good info right there dude + rep, im currently doing a 20v ST into my ta22 celica, and there is a massive gray cloud hanging over the 20 esp the ecu region

as far as i can tell and have done alot or reading on the topic, one of the more affordable ecu options is the Adaptronic, quite an advanced little unit(closed loop and all), and for the features u get its a poofteeth of the price of a more widely known ecu, the other alternative that is affordable is the razorback, its 100 AUD less than the adaptronic but its essentially a piggy back unit, it does have hand controller and all that other wank factor but IMHO it is rat shit, as most piggy back units are (compared to a decent closed loop ecu)

my project (going from 2t to 20v) goal is about 80-100rwkw id like more, but the other part of the goal is to retain daily drivablity, and i recon after that sort of power i start to loose it, be it lack of bottom end torque, peak power at and torque in a place that makes it not useable.

but yeah good info, keep it comming dude

[blacktop]

That is some thread you started there. I'm not sure if you covered most of this stuff but i learnt most of my 4AGE tuning of this site, its all explained in great detail.
http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm

if you follow some links it get's into more detail.

[blacktop]

my project (going from 2t to 20v) goal is about 80-100rwkw id like more, but the other part of the goal is to retain daily drivablity, and i recon after that sort of power i start to loose it, be it lack of bottom end torque, peak power at and torque in a place that makes it not useable.

I went gun ho in to 20v conversions and tuning, all for on raod use, then i was told to try and park a 250hp+ 4AGE at 6000rpm. i could imagine it would be pretty scary. the figure you want to achieve seems very sensible and i wish you all the luck to get there.

[Mr Revhead]

arrgh where to start

i dont think theres a huge black cloud hanging over 20vs.... its just most ppl go turbo as for the same $$ you can get a heap more power. building hipo n/a = $$$$


well..... the angled ITB idea has merit, and will work
i was going to do that on my AW11 but i sold it...... so wont be doing it untill the KP60 is ready for an engine.
friend of mine into off road racing experimented with angled intakes (bodged up for dyno runs) and on his set up found a heap of power with a straight intake, ie angling up the ITBS for a straight shot into the ports.

im currantly awaiting flow test results on both 20v heads to determine which will be the best for the other project we have going here, ae82 fxgt race car, the other thing to consider is they have different combustion chambers.

as for ECU i dont see any confusion either..... over here the link is very very popular (they are made here) and they are up with the best in the world. if your really serious a motec would be the one.

now the rod issue.. the BT rods are weak. too weak for high rpm and/or lotsa power. prepped silver top rods are fine for most applications.

also somehting to consider... the oil system. the stock sump is to small for race use. you need a bigger sump with good baffling. i dont how many 20vs iv seen dye on the track coz the oil got a little low and BANG

i think the biggest secret to building a hot 20v is just knowing what your doing, ie engine theory.

[DARKMAZE]

This info looks great.

I've recently purchased myself an AE71, and am looking to get a 20 valve in it with the aim of around 90 - 100 rear wheel KW, which I'm hoping will not be too hard to achieve. I have to agree with the 'turbo' phenomenon, however I've had the turbocharged car, and I want to try a different approach this time around. A nice NA engine to scream at 8000-9000 rpm, and can't wait for the first time I get to hear / feel it, and I'm not aiming for bucketloads of power, so hope that it's not too unreachable..

But, I've also noticed there doesn't seem to be a large easily accessible source for information on tuning these engines, and finding do-up parts for them has not been easy on what I've spent. It would be great to have at least some more info on, add this, get this result.

[86er]

Thanks guys was watching this topic all day starting to think no one was interested lol

well Im using megasuirt its preety nice and a cheap option for management gettin better all the time, Ive seen a few modded silvertops dynoed depending on if u have the later model silvertop head u get better flow, theres a nice topic on club4ag where both engine were taken apart and compared by the same Mr. John. But club4ag is down at moment so anyway, most megasquirted silvertops with open stacks, header exhaust made aroun 130-35whp the few i saw anyway there was one will ted component cam regrinds aswell made in 150whp range not sure which silvertop head though. so your goals should be attainable not sure how much that is in KW


Mr Rev head Im very interested to see results of flow test results
Im definately gonna attemp intake angle mod thanks for that too

can anyone confrim the lift in mm on these cams from kelford would also like to confirm the max lift the 20v can take with limited space.

Part No Application Price Approx RPM Range Duration @ .010" Duration @ .050" Valve Lift @ 1 to 1 Centerline @ Full Lift
194-c Racing Camshafts, great performance in light cars, top end power USD$550.004500-9000 298 298 248 248 .395" .395" 104 106

heres link incase it doesnt come up good
http://www.camshaftshop.com/camshaft...yota-camshaft/
scroll down to 20v 4ag section

thanks for input again guys


also whats max compression on pump gas safely anyway 12:1?

[Mr Revhead]

one thing to watch when angling the ITBs is bonnet clearance

facelift and prefacelift silvertop heads are the same, its the intake manifolds that are different.

just contact kelfords on the cams.

compression ratios depend on the fuel, im in NZ and our fuel is different. so i cant comment too much on your stuff, but for 12:1 you really need 100+ octane.

[kingmick]

98 ron is fine for 12-1 in a 20v.

[Mr Revhead]

both versions of the 20v are designed for JDM 100 octane fuel
they both struggle on 96 with stock compression.
i think that says it all......

[adamaw11]

Some good info here, I'll keep an eye on this thread.

Remember the dyno day a couple of years ago a blacktop 20v made 133.9kw at the wheels of an ae86
http://www.toymods.net/forums/showpo...79&postcount=1

Did anyone ever find out anything about his setup? I had the impression he was being secretive about it at the time.

As far as the fuel problem goes, whynot consider the 98 octane E10 fuel. I've seen magazine articles where its proven to have the detonation resistance of more like 103 octane race fuels etc

I run my blacktop on E10, I havn't had it dynoed, but I've done a couple of 14.7sec @150kmh qtr mile runs not sure of my cars weight, definately over 1000kg though, so I'm thinking it must be making something close the 100rwkw mark - I'll have to find out one of these days anyway.

Maybe we can start putting togethor a list of dyno figures for the 20v.???

[Mr Revhead]

i think fuel is a bit of a moot point here.
theres at least 3 different countries involved!
plus the aim here is 200+ hp. that wont happen on an n/a 20v on pump gas.

[kingmick]

Yes an comp helps to try and get close to that.

[oldcorollas]

98 ron is fine for 12-1 in a 20v.

for which cam specs? surely it depends on dynamic compression more than static?