MicroTech - 4AGE, 4AGZE and 4AGE-20V factory EFI configurations

[hks7mgt]

Hi Gents,

I'm looking at converting my 2TG engine from Delco EFI to MicroTech EFI and i have some basic questions that i can't find straight forward answers for via the search function.

It appears I need to use a later version 4AGE, all 4AGZE and all 20V distributor to optimize my options for multiple coil configuration as the later dizzy's have a 24 tooth pickup where as the earlier version 4AG engine use the old school 4 Tooth pickup. The distributor in question should be the one detailed in the following link http://www.twincam.info/lofiversion/index.php/t21555.html

Q. Which model/generation cars/engines begin using these 24 tooth dizzy's?

I have a 2TG engine where I’ll obviously be requiring to use the 4AG dizzy, but only use it to measure the timing, not spark.

Q. Will the 4AG 24 tooth dizzy fit into the 2TG engine and if so, is there any modifications necessary?

I have been told the 4AGZE has a dual coil setup where there are two coil packs each controlling two coils, as pictured here http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/AE92SpeedDemon/swapelectrical012.jpg

Q. Is this setup unique to the 4AGZE engines?
Q. Does this setup partner-up the 24 tooth dizzy?

You're assistance is greatly appreciated.

Frank

[fixeruperer]

just use your 2tg dizzy but take the guts out of it and make a new base plate and replace the points with reluctors and pickup from the 4a you can use the 4 tooth one you just have to set that up in the microtech setup.

if a 4a one doesnt fit there will be something out there you can use.
there's point conversion kits you can get from crane, ignitor, etc but im not shaw if the microtech will accept them as a signal.

[hks7mgt]

Thanks fixeruperer. But with the MicroTech's you need the 24 tooth dizzy to enable the multi coil support.

I'm sure my current dizzy already has what you are describing as i'm running the later model 2TGEU dizzy which has an electronic pickup with a 4 tooth trigger and the dizzt was guttered and modified also.

I'll have to take another look thou.

[hks7mgt]

I'm still interested to know if anyone has fitted a 4AGE dizzy to a 2TG engine

[kojab]

Frank I am puzzled why you would want to use a microtech ECU.

What is the Delco not doing for you?

In my opinion the microtech would probably be the worst ECU you could use for a 2TG.

Should I be wearing a flame suit after making such a statement?

Dick

Hi Gents,

I'm looking at converting my 2TG engine from Delco EFI to MicroTech EFI and i have some basic questions that i can't find straight forward answers for via the search function.

It appears I need to use a later version 4AGE, all 4AGZE and all 20V distributor to optimize my options for multiple coil configuration as the later dizzy's have a 24 tooth pickup where as the earlier version 4AG engine use the old school 4 Tooth pickup. The distributor in question should be the one detailed in the following link http://www.twincam.info/lofiversion/index.php/t21555.html

Q. Which model/generation cars/engines begin using these 24 tooth dizzy's?

I have a 2TG engine where I’ll obviously be requiring to use the 4AG dizzy, but only use it to measure the timing, not spark.

Q. Will the 4AG 24 tooth dizzy fit into the 2TG engine and if so, is there any modifications necessary?

I have been told the 4AGZE has a dual coil setup where there are two coil packs each controlling two coils, as pictured here http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/AE92SpeedDemon/swapelectrical012.jpg

Q. Is this setup unique to the 4AGZE engines?
Q. Does this setup partner-up the 24 tooth dizzy?

You're assistance is greatly appreciated.

Frank

[hks7mgt]

Kojab - Please explain your theory?

I want to move away from 'batch firing' and get more control over the injectors, use better coils limited to how many sparks they control, tune out the extreme richness in the low down stuff and hopefully have a better ECU to manage the overall tuning to hopefully get more power.

Plus my setup with QTB is quite unique where the Delco is has a desire to a plenum type EFI setup.

I thought i was moving up in the world...

[kojab]

You will only gain more power over batch fire if the ECU has the ability to trim individual cylinders.
To do this and using your own words "get more control over the injectors" you also need

1) Data logging rate of minimum 12 fps (frames per second) or faster (100 fps).

2) An ECU that caters for Wide band A/F input/output data logging.

3) Knock control.

I know the Delco has the ability to do all 3 of the above. Can the Microtech?

Why do you have extreme richness in the low down stuff with the Delco?
What tuning tools are you using with your present Delco ECU?

Cheers
Dick

Kojab - Please explain your theory?

I want to move away from 'batch firing' and get more control over the injectors, use better coils limited to how many sparks they control, tune out the extreme richness in the low down stuff and hopefully have a better ECU to manage the overall tuning to hopefully get more power.

Plus my setup with QTB is quite unique where the Delco is has a desire to a plenum type EFI setup.

I thought i was moving up in the world...

[hks7mgt]

This Delco doesn't have Knock control.

Can you expand on your term 'Trim Individual Cylinders'?

I had the Delco re-chiped, updated firmware to a VR config and updated the processor to a 8 or 16bit can't remember the exact detail. The ecu rocks for what i have gained out of it, just with the QTB's i don't see the setup being able to improve on the richness down low as the delco seems to like plenums.

I didn't tune the car, the Dyno guy did all the above work and the tuning but found it difficult to work around the QTB to fine tune low throttle and idle work loads.

I found out that the only way to use MicroTech in sequential mode is to go dizzyless and use a Universal Crank Trigger Kit. Acutally, i think thats the only way to use sequential mode in any ECU.

What do you suggest? Have you any experience with the Delco's? I think they did a later model sequential unit, but i'm not sure if i can adapt that, will have to research it.

[kojab]

All Delco ECUs have knock control. To implement it a Memcal with a knock buffer must be used and of course the flag enabled in the bin file.

'Trim Individual Cylinders'? means the ECU can be tuned (different pulse widths) for individual cylinders when air delivery is not equal on all cylinders. In other words ECU can accommodate for a cylinder that might be running slightly rich or lean.

VR ECMs combined with VR bin files use higher speed logging rate than the VN/VP. Processor speed is the same for both.

With regards your quote

"The ecu rocks for what i have gained out of it, just with the QTB's i don't see the setup being able to improve on the richness down low as the delco seems to like plenum"

The Delco ECU has by far much finer adjustment than the microtech. What you have described above is simply a tuning issue that has not been addressed. It would be more likely the scenario that the Delco would solve this problem far easier than the microtech ever could.

There is a very true saying that is "The tune is only going to be as good as the tuner's knowledge in the particular ECU he is familiar with"

Sequential mode will not produce any more power than batch mode.

I would suggest staying with the Delco ECU and find a tuner who knows his stuff.
I have been tuning Delcos for 20 years with tuning tools we have developed ourselves.

This is one of the many fast cars we have tuned with Delco
http://www.supercharged911.com/

Cheers
Dick

[hks7mgt]

I once had high hopes for the Delco, but that vanished slowly, but you are putting confidence back in me regarding all the original reason's i fitted one in the first place.

It's a shame about the tuning, as the guy who tuned it specialises in Delco's tuning Holden's, Vet's and anything Delco related including all the new gear so you think when put forward to him my concerns that he'd be able to tuned them out. Arrg!

Well you seem to know a lot about the Delco's, Would you suggest i take it to another dude in Adelaide (would you be able to recommend anyone) or attempt to learn the programming and tune it myself? Would you be able to aid me with some of your tools? (or is that asking a magician to reveal his secrets? - understandable).

When i first was looking into the delco, i found some applications called WinALDL V1.09A and WinBin V0.0.14 and some instruction on how to hook up a serial cable (i think it was 25Pin on one end and 9 Pin on the other) and the 25 Pin side needed a resisor and a tranistor soldered in one of the wires, etc etc to hook it up. Are you farmiliar with these tools?

lol i like your saying and i have one of my own, 'If you want something done properly, do it yourself'.

[kojab]

What really needs to be done first is to make some data logs while your vehicle is driven on the road to highlight your problem areas. Do you know if this was done when your car was tuned or was all the tuning performed on the dyno?

If you are interested in seeing some Delco data logs of different vehicles with various tuning problems you can sign up on my web page and request a copy of the DST (Diagnostic Scan Tool) demo program in the "DST Demo" forum.

Road or track data logging is the most important part of the tuning process. If you can't see what is happening or not happening when the vehicle is actually running in its normal environment you will not be able to tune it successfully. Believe it or not, none of our high performance cars are tuned on the dyno.

With regards "WinALDL V1.09A and WinBin V0.0.14" I am familiar with them but we use our own DST which has many vital features including Wide band A/F data which is displayed on the same log. This features is not found in other Delco scan tools.

Just some questions for you.

1) Do you have a 16 pin OBDII socket wired into to your Delco loom?
2) What is the Service number of your Delco ECM?
3) Can you describe or take pictures of your QTB
4) I assume you are using a MAP sensor. How is it connected?
5) Can you get the current bin file downloaded from your memcal?

Cheers
Dick

[hks7mgt]

Yes, your assumption is correct. All the tuning was done on the dyno. From your comments, it seems i should look into getting some logging done and begin comparing and tuning.

Answers to you're questions, to the best of my knowledge
1. I have a 12 pin black plug (referred to as a ALDL Connector in the wiring diagram) hanging from the ECU that only has 6 pins; 12V, Earth, Fuel Pump, TCC Test Point, Check Engine Lamp and Diag Request Circuit.
2. Does the number 1227808 make any sense? If not i can pull the ECU out of the car and look inside? But as i said, the base ECU is from a JE Camira, but modified as i mentioned earlier.
3 & 4. Have a look at this; http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zcRZ1E8uiXI It's not that great in detail but you can see the QTB. The issue i had was getting a decent signal to the MAP sensor as there was no Plenum. The QTB are bolted to a match-ported factory twin carb manifold. These manifolds have a chamber linking each pair together so the vacuum is balanced between the pair. Due to the shear lack of volume in these chambers, i organsied for a separate box (plenum if you wish) and had both chambers plumbed into it. By looking at the video you can see the two (apprx 3/4in hoses) plumbed from the manifold into the box on the top RHS. From this box i have a vaccum line running to the MAP sensor (about 50cm in length) which sits behind the window washer bottle res.
5. I don't have the facilities to tap into the ECU via software/laptop as i never got around making the cable. Could you recommend an easy method of doing so?

Thanks for taking the time to help me out on this.

[kojab]

The 12 pin plug tells me your using the standard camira loom and this also means that you can't log at VR speeds (8192 baud 12 fps) as there is no connection for it on this loom.
The 1227808 is also the standard ECM for a camira and is only capable of 160 baud which equates to 1 frame of data every 1.25 seconds, quite useless for tuning.

Assuming your 1227808 is standard and has not been modified for high speed logging/tuning. How could your car have been custom tuned without a VR high speed ECM?

The only possible answer is that a VR/VS manual high speed ECM was temporally fitted to your vehicle prior to it being dyno tuned.
As your 12 pin plug does not have a high speed (12 fps) connection on it, means the only way to log with high speed (VR) data is for the temporally fitted ECM to have its own communications cable or socket on its case. Do you recall this is what occurred?

In thread 8 you said quote "I had the Delco re-chiped, updated firmware to a VR config and updated the
processor to a 8 or 16bit can't remember the exact detail."

There is no benefit to how well the engine runs in upgrading the 1227808 ECM to VR specs unless you want high speed logging from it so I would be quite surprised if it has been modified. Maybe you could remove the case and see if an extra chip has been added.

Lastly is whether or not the program in your memcal is VR based. If you can do without your car for a few days the memcal could be sent to me for evaluation.

Cheers
Dick

[hks7mgt]

The dyno guy (so called Delco Specialist dude) said he removed one of the onboard chips and replaced it with an another, more advanced chip. He also said that he improved it from what ever the STD bit rating was to an 8 or 16Bit (can't recal exactly). Then on top of that he remapped the chip. I recall him saying this enabled him to better tune the car for various reasons, one being it enabled more functions on the tuning application. Does this makes sense to you? He specifically said it was equivalent to a VR ECM with the modifications he performed. I mentioned later that in hind-sight i should have used a VR ECM, but he reminded me there was no need now as i basically have a VR unit.

He definately did not plug another ECM in, tuned it and then replaced it with the Camira unit with an updated map/tune.

Do you know what the VR is identified as? I'll research the wiring differences to see what you mean.

So in short, would i be wasting my time data-logging with the 12 Pin ALDL? What if the ECM is reconfigured to a VR ECM; would the 12 Pin ALDL be able to provide me with data-logging for tuning?

You mentioned a second chip being added. Can you provide more information?

I'll go take some pics of the ECM...

[hks7mgt]

I don't have time tonight to post the pics as i have taken of the inside of the ECM as i'll have to work all that out, but the main removal chip mechaniod (haha) that holds the chip actually has three chips in there, two the same size and one lager with a little window that was covered by a sticker label 'Celica' which i removed.

Chips had these numbers on them, from large chip to the two smaller ones; 16069300, 16067752, 16067753.

What do you make out of that?