New dry sump pump - need assistance!

[ed]

Heya

ok, so my random ebay dry sump pump purchase arrived today

ive got no idea what brand it is, nor what the specs are, or even any idea on instructions and function etc etc. eg, which way does it spin? lol... i feel like a noob!

so, a few questions, please have a look at the pics below, and throw me your 2c!

so first up, from what i can gather its a 3 +1 stage pump. ie x2 scavenge, x1 primary pressure, x1 high pressure acc stage (?power steering)

there appears to be a pressure relief fitting on the acc stage, and there is provision for a pressure relief valve on the primary pressure stage, but nothing is currently installed (but i have a spare in a bag)

other questions include... what kind of pulley fits the input shaft? is there a standard for pulley fittings and keyways etc? who best to approach for pulleys etc?

what direction does it spin? i assume clockwise when viewed front the front looking at the input shaft (same as std engine rotation). but is there a way to confirm? i guess you need to pull the pump bodies apart to look at the porting?

is it best to mount the pump so oil flows in the bottom and pumped out the top, or better to flow top to bottom? i assume its good to have a little oil sitting in the pump for cold startup? how best to orient it to the block?

is there an easy way to test these things?

any other comments or ideas that i havent thought of yet?

cheers
ed

[Draven]

I'm desperately holding back an "I told you so"... 'cause I know linden will be in here in the next couple of days to complain he told you to do this like a year ago

[oldcorollas]

well, if the pump is attached to the engine, then chances are it will spin clockwise.. cos it takes some power to spin, so it is unlikely to be driven by the outside of the belt... no?

but gerotor can spin both ways really... just like normal oil pumps
you cna look at the endplates and see which way the shaft is offcentre, to see which side has the open area on the rotors.. (ie, down on pic 6 is the open area), but that still doesn't say which is in or out...
i'd still go with clockwise

pulley = toothed belt.. they draw a fair bit of power and you don7t want it to slip...
http://www.nissanracingengines.com.a...ump%20pump.JPG
link to pulleys and shit http://www.rcdengineering.com/drysump_drive.html

orientation... gerotors seal and suck pretty well if there is any oil in them at all, so orientation may not make much difference. maybe output = up is a little better (has oil sitting against it when engine stopped, better for restart), but that will prolly be same as best orientation for pipes and things.
soem seem to be mounted horizontal as well. some are more vertical



http://www.moroso.com/articles/artic...otorPumps.html
http://www.moroso.com/articles/artic...mpSystems.html
moroso gerotor pump

[ill-minded]

just taking a stab in the dark really, but to test it, maybe fill a small tub with water/oil, hooking up a line to one side of one of the stages and run the pump of a cordless drill?

[The Real Roadrunner]

did that come with the new monkey rocker?

stop in friday arvo and ill give you the rundown.

[Lachie]

As far as the oil supply to the pump goes, you never want it to be sucking air and it msut always be full of oil, or you could damage the pump because of cavitation. Any hydraulic pumps for pumping cooling fluid for machining have a larger inlet than outlet to ensure the pump is always full to avoid cavitation, which can destory a pump.

Also, maybe this suggests that the oulet and inlet should be on the top so the pump is always full, and any air can escape the outlet if it does get in there? Maybe a swirl pot to remove air out of the oil is a good idea too? Not too sure about this though, bvut it makes sense.

see this link for an explanation of cavitation if you dont understand it http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=373

I'll get some picks of the dry sump pump setup on a supercar once I get back to work and can get on the laptop there.

Unfortunately, all my design books are at work, so I can't look it up in them, but I'm pretty sure pulleys have a standard sizing system, but definately the key does. Remember to ensure that the key is the weakest part. This will ensure that if something goes wrong (i.e pump jams for some reason) the key will shear, avoiding damage to more expensive parts of the system, like making the shaft or pulley fail. It also makes it really easy and cheap to repair, as you just replace the key.

This link also has some good information about hydraulic pumps, I've only had a quick look, but it all seems good to me

http://machinedesign.com/BDE/FLUID/bdefp4/bdefp4_1.html

Also, to work out pulley sizes you need to pump the right amount of oil, hooking the pump up to a lathe that you can measure the rpm on and recording the volume pumped can be useful

[rob]

ed, do you still have pics of the time we went to the boat racing at windsor. Lots of dry sum setups there to look at.

[jeffro ra28]

From setup point of view the pump should be mounted as such that the scavenge side of the pump is the bottom. Although some dry sump pumps that are driven of the camshaft (pushrod V8 and sprint car style because of space constraints) the scavenge and pressure stages are horizontally configured. In most cases looking at the pump from the front (shaft side) the pump spins clockwise. . The thread direction on the shaft may help you confirm this and if its LH something is funky . It is also helpful in this orientation (RH thread) so that manual pressure priming of the oil system can be performed by removing the belt and attaching a drill to the pulley nut and spinning clockwise (it wont losen the nut).

Most dry sump pumps have 1/2" drives. Pulleys can be sourced in a wide variety of teeth numbers and size. PW (performance wholesale) is the place for Peterson (dry sump systems) products and probably your best bet for a variety of pulleys. If it tickles your fancy you can also purchase Peterson oil relief valves which are nice and very effective .
Drive ratio of the pump will be unique to the engine requirements. Of course there is a balance between picking the right drive ratio and right pressure relief requirements so your not overdriving the pump for no reason, etc etc.

As far as swirl pots go, the dry sump tank is meant to do this. Effective baffles and design features in dry sump tanks will minimize oil aeration and frothing. A big failure in ALOT of home made dry sump tanks is the lack of their ability to reduce aeration and frothing of the oil.

When its all said and done you know the system is working properly when you have vacuum in your crankcase!

I have tons of photo's of boat engines, drag engines and the like all with nice shiny dry sump systems with proven performance. Can post them up to give some idea's if you like.

[ed]

pulled the pump apart last night - seems were stuck with the inlets being on the top and the oulets on the bottom - we cant switch the mounting location around. it would probably be slightly tilted when finally installed... and viewed from the front the inlet would be at about 1 o'clock, and the outlet at 7 o'clock

would this be a big problem?

[oldcorollas]

funny pipes to the pickups?
can't mount on other side of engine?

[jeffro ra28]

I cant see it being a problem tho it would depend on where you were sucking the oil from?

This setup simulates roughly the same outcome and worked perfectly fine however the top of the oil level in the tank is still above the pump suction inlet.




I think the most important part of the exercise is to make sure the static supply of oil from the oil tank to the pump is adequate . Scavenge from the bottom of the sump to return to the tank isnt nearly as important as its going to suck alot of air from that area anyway. More often then not the sump scavenge on the pump is at a higher level then the sump drains anyhow. So its still sucking the leftovers from the bottom of the sump "uphill" anyway.

[ed]

I have tons of photo's of boat engines, drag engines and the like all with nice shiny dry sump systems with proven performance. Can post them up to give some idea's if you like.

can you email me a selection

just like to see some ideas

rob...
http://www.v-eight.com/tech_forum/vi...php?f=35&t=646