Engines, 3k vs 4k?

[MarkIIRx12]

Hello Folks

I got myself a Ke70, where the previous owner swapped in a 3k engine, instead of the original 4k.

the 3k is in good condition, so im thinking about just keeping it in, but i wonder, is 4k a better engine? how about the power? from what i can see it looks like they have about the same hp output, is this correct? i also wonder about wich one runs cheaper, should the 3k runs cheaper since its smaller, or will the 4k be most economic since its newer?

any pro or cons about the engines?

anyone know if the starter and alternator is swappable between these engines?

Im also looking for a 5 speed gearbox, but been searching ebay and the local wreckers and had no luck so far, turns out in Norway where i live its not been sold corollas or starlets with rwd and 5speed. Any suggestions where i can get a tranny for a decent price?

Thanks for your help

[rob]

ive had a 3k and a 4k in a ke35 and as much as i wished i felt a power difference there was none.

if you dont care about going quick then theres no reason to find a 4k as the 3k should do the job. If you do want to go fast, then neither engine is worth the using and you are better off swapping it out for a 4A or 3S, unless you are a die hard K motor fan.

as for 5 speeds, we still have a fair amount of old toyotas in australia and 5 speed K50 gearboxes are still fairly easy to get for AU$100-300, but having one shipped all the way over to Norway probably isnt worth it.

im happy to hand deliver a gearbox if you are willing to pay for my flights and accommodation to your awesome country

[oldcorollas]

the 4K is 100cc larger, and this is from longer stroke.
the volume is only about 8% bigger, so you will get abotu 8% more torque... some, but not heaps, and a KE70 is slow with either a 3K or 4K, so it will onyl feel a little slower

the Hp is more to do with the carburettor and cam choice, as opposed to performance, and the 3K was often rated with a different system (more generous) so the actual power outputs are different from the "factory" amounts.... so don't let that worry you.

the 4K might be a little more economic, as it has a little more torque to get you going, but there is realyl nothing in it. the effort of swapping vs any saving is negligible.

4K pro = 8% larger
3K pro = you have it already

if you find a 4K shortblock (you need sump, block, pistons crank and rods, AND pushrods) then you can drop the 3K head on and have 10:1 compression.. no need to find a whole engine.

there are a few different starters between differeent K series engines.. some have the threads in the bellhousing, some have threads in the starter, some have different bolt sizes, and some (later models) have reduction starters...
but, generally, they can be made to work. a picture of threads or no threads, and the bolt size, will tell you enough to know if it will work our not...
basically, it is starter/gearbox fitment.. nothing to do with engine (except the backing plate bolt hole sizes)

alternator.... australia got Bosch 40amp(?) alternators on KE70. they use a different lower bracket and upper bracket, (and the 4K's used a THINNER belt than the earlier models, which means the pulleys are different)
i think the rest of the world got Denso alternators on KE70's...
either way, the bolt holes on the BLOCK are the same...
so...

you just need to match the bracket to the alternator type (if neither is Bosch, i think no worries) and match the alternator PULLEY to the pulley widths on the waterpump/crank... and alts should bolt across.

BUT, there may be differences in internal vs external voltage regulator... Bosch have internal regulator = simpler wiring... not sure on the Denso alt.....

gearboxes in japan are generalyl expensive, and shipping for Aus or Japan is not cheap. ther emust be somewhere in europe that got them. i am sure i have heard of them being available in Finland....

[MarkIIRx12]

Thanks a lot for your answers, thats some very helpfull info.

I will keep the 3k then. I will have too look at the alternator and see what kind is on there.

since its possible to use a 3k head on a 4k, is most of the parts interchangeable? like waterpump, oilfilter etc etc? how about gasketsets/valve seals?

approx how much would a 5speed box cost me from japan or aus, im prepared to pay upto something like 6-700 Us dollars inclusive shipping.

Finland might be a place to find one, any finnish members still around on this forum?

Thanks again for ur help

[river]

Hi,

im happy to hand deliver a gearbox if you are willing to pay for my flights and accommodation to your awesome country

Oy!!! I do the Norwegian trips here!

Yes, there are a few Finnish members on these forums, and I beleive they are still around.

seeyuzz
river

[oldcorollas]

I will keep the 3k then. I will have too look at the alternator and see what kind is on there.

since its possible to use a 3k head on a 4k, is most of the parts interchangeable? like waterpump, oilfilter etc etc? how about gasketsets/valve seals?

approx how much would a 5speed box cost me from japan or aus, im prepared to pay upto something like 6-700 Us dollars inclusive shipping.

Finland might be a place to find one, any finnish members still around on this forum?

Thanks again for ur help

can you take a picture of the alternator, and of the plug at the back of it?

unless you have a very early 3K (from KE10 or KE20) then the valve seals will be interchangeable.
head gasket and rocker cover gasket are ok also. K, 3K and 4K all have same bore size and bore spacing. the gaskets have some differences in the small holes for cooling passages, but that should not have a large effect.
3K and 4K sump gaskets are often different due to the differenct spacing of the sump bolts.

rocker gear in the head swaps across, but as i said before pushrods are different length (4K has a taller deck height than 3K)

waterpump.. there are differences between models with the number and position of the smaller outlets, and with the mounting holes for the pulleys. i think the pulley mounting face is largely the same, but not sure. it is better to visualyl check the pump is the same before buying.

oil filter is no problem.

i think most of the gaskets and front/rear seals are same, but better to measure them first.

intake and exhaust manifolds are also no problem, but are changed as a set.. or.. get an exhaust manifold/extractors/headers made up (if it is cold where you live, it is better to keep the connction between the exhaust and intake manifolds, so fuel doesn't pool int he manifold under the carby)

carburettors are generalyl of similar design, but with some mechanicla differences... ie earlier carbs have a mechanically operated secondary, with a "high speed flap" (a bent throttle plate with a weighted lever attached which opens as vacuum increases), but later ones have a vacuum operated secondary throttle. plus other small differences and additions, but the basic carby size is same and they swap across.

umm.. oh and 3K usually has a double row timing chain, whereas 4K has single row. single row supposedly uses a bit less power, but double row should last longer.. you can swap the 3 toothed gears adn the timing chain between models to change from one to the other.

anything else?

[MarkIIRx12]

Hi again

wow, Thanks a lot for the detailed answers, You knowlegde is as always very impressive.

The gaskets im planning to change is the head gasket, and the valve oilseal, so i will get a complete head gasket set. 3k parts is too old for most of the stores to get a hold of now, so its easier if i can use 4k parts.
The engine is in good condition so its mostly just service parts im gonna change.

I will try to take a picture of the alternator, but right now the car is snowed in and its like -20C outside

How about the clutches? are they the same? is there any clutches i can use thats a bit more dureable than the stock clutch? i dont want any racing clutch or anything like that since its just gonna be a daily driver, but the stock clutches tends to wear out fast.

Ok last question, how much oil does the 3k take, with and without filter change?

Plane trips to Norway to deliver a gearbox sounds good to me, maybe i can drive u back in the ke70 ?

[oldcorollas]

first, check that your 3K DOES have oil seals. older ones do not.. they have an inverted cup at the top of the valve spring, but no seals. Most 3K's will have valve stem seals, and be same as 4K.

there are different clutches, but i forget the details. the early stuff (late '60's, early 70's) have a smaller clutch with different style of bellhousing. You can swap flywheels if necessary
i cannto remember if 3K (KE30) and 4K (KE55/KE70) clutch is the same, but you can get "heavy duty" clutches from a number of brands.. depends what you have available over there. they may not last longer, but clutch life depends on your leg and mechanical sympathy... you could make a stock clutch last 200,000km if you want

no idea on oil.. less than 5L maybe 4? 4.3? i forget.

[MarkIIRx12]

Thanks for the heads up on the oil seals, i will have to check that out.

i went thru a couple of new clutches within a few months on my other ke70, but the reason was trying to do burnouts all the time

is there a brand clutch u can recomend? i had a couple of exedy clutches wich i wasnt too happy with. Seems to me the Toyota clutches are mostly better than the aftermarked clutches when it comes to a car were everythings stock/no tuning, is this correct?

4,3 liter sounds a bit much on that small engine, but i have no idea about the 3k. Does anyone have that page from a ke30 owners manual (or simular) that lists all the oilcapacities and such?, valve gaps would be usefull too.

Thanks again for all ur help

[oldcorollas]

i usually the PBR heavy cuty brand "RPM" but they are only 20-50% stronger than stock.

perhaps revise your driving style or stick to wet roads....

[MarkIIRx12]

Thanks for the tip, i will have a look at a clutch like that.

i usually drive carefull, but once in a while a good burnout prolongs life