280rwkw smallport 4age turbo setup?

[Shifty]

Done a fair bit of reading but there's so much info and/or dribble out there that it's hard to find a solid and up-to-date source. Anyway 200rwkw seems to be a no-brainer, but I'm looking to build a smallport 4AGE turbo setup to the 260-280rwkw mark so I figure it requires an amount of planning and forethought

They seem like pretty tough little nuggets so I've listed my plans below. Anyone who has "been there, done that" or has fairly strong knowledge and can constructively agree/disagree with the below.

Bottom End: Smallport 4AGE - standard block (this is the strong one right), standard oil pump, standard crank, plus aftermarket rods & forgies, ARP rod & head studs, metal head gasket
Head: Chasing this power level, can I get away with a 4AGE smallport head with basic porting and cams/springs/gears?
Cams: Can anyone recommend an appropriate cam setup? Bigger is obviously better as far as dynamic compression & overall performance, but I'd like to get away with a more modest set if there's soemthing that can get me there (read: off-boost can be laggy, but must idle and drive half smoothly!!)
Fuel: stock rail, stock FPR, 700-800cc injectors, plus decent pump setup
EFI: Haltech PS500 (limits boost to 22psi), LS1 coils
Turbo: GT2876R (a touch too small?) and proper tube manifold
Fuel: Pump 98
Misc: Skids!
Box: W55/7/8 as a minimum, but is there a bolt-up option for anything larger like an R154 or a Toploader? Alternatively I may consider a tough auto but to be honest probably not

If I'm missing anything please let me know.

PS: If you're not a mormon then here's a picture of a hot chick, for motivation: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FqQEHPUq6Z...Tebow%2BGF.jpg

[Joshstix]

You're not going to make 280rwkw on a 4A with a GT2876R and 22psi of boost unless it is the worlds best flowing engine and you rev the tits off it.

Here are a few questions that might help you get useful answers:

What is the real aim for the engine other than make XXX powers?
What is it being used in?
Is there a good reason it has to be a 4A?
Are there emissions legalities involved?

[Shifty]

You're not going to make 280rwkw on a 4A with a GT2876R and 22psi of boost unless it is the worlds best flowing engine and you rev the tits off it.

Here are a few questions that might help you get useful answers:

What is the real aim for the engine other than make XXX powers?
What is it being used in?
Is there a good reason it has to be a 4A?
Are there emissions legalities involved?

Hi mate

Thanks for your response, I'll reply in point form:

1. As mentioned I felt that the 2876R was a little small at ~22psi, but at the same time not entirely unrealistic.. perhaps more the 'right' size rather than overkill. My aim is 260-280rwkw so that's asking 350-380rwhp from a turbo rated at 480hp, so at those figures I'm asking perhaps 415-450hp which shouldn't be unrealistic. Honestly I'd think that a 2871R wouldn't be far off the mark, I read only today on this site about a turbo 4A making 270kw-odd at the front wheels from a 2871R so I figured the 2876R was a pretty safe bet. To put it in perspective I don't see any reason why I wouldn't go to 9,000-9,500rpm to achieve that power. I regularly see/hear of 4As going to 8,000 and 9,000rpm and have personally witnessed one at a shade over 10,000rpm. At 9300rpm a 4A is roughly equivalent to a two litre at 7500rpm so that should be pretty right.
2. No real aim. Something to drive around sedately but that has way more power than you could ever want or use.
3. Car will be about 1100kg including driver.
4. Definitely needs to be a 4A, as I've always wanted to do one and never gotten around to it. Could, of course, be a 7A although that adds extra complexities & concerns as they're nowhere near as proven.
5. No specific requirements other than needing a cat, charcoal canister and recirculated PCV.

[oldcorollas]

at 22psi, you'll need to rev to 9500 to make 280rwkw (assuming 20% more at flywheel), and still need to not lose any VE at that speed...

so... aim your cams for an NA peak around 7500-8000?

you are basically aiming for an honest 550rwkw 2J... if that puts it into perspective? not many of them would be on only 22psi...

[beerhead]

You'll get 10% more power loss going RWD through a big gearbox like a W box over FWD. So 250kw should be easily done, and have a nice power curve. If you're revving to 9000rpm get a bigger turbo, you'll be past the efficiency of a a 2871R. You wouldn't believe it until you've seen it but GT35/40's with a custom 0.63 rear perform really well on a 1.6, and will make use of 9000rpm.

You see that thread about Main bearing ladder caps? Might be worth your while.

[oldcorollas]

maybe just talk to Bazda and 30psi ?

[boxh34d]

First of all - I have no experience with 280kw 4A's, but I've been quite a bit of work lately with looking at sizing of turbos.
Purely looking at airflow requirements without a heap of details about cam choice differences on efficiency etc, by my calcs, that kind of figure (~450HP @ the flywheel) could be doable with 9000rpm, with around 45lb.min of compressor flow, at around 2.6 to 2.8PR (24 to 26psi boost) provided your cams are spec'd to give you some decent efficiency up higher. A good GT30 should be able to do this. If you couldn' really do 9000, and had to settle for 8000rpm, or couldn't get the high VE up high, you'd be looking at somewhere up around 30 to 32psi boost for the same power. Pretty big numbers, and not too many turbos are too happy pushing that kind of pressure.

Have trialled these numbers with a few different setups now, and they seem reasonably reliable, but I'd love to hear from those with real experience how my numbers stack up in this instance.

[jonathan yee]

maybe upsize to a new gtx3071. should get you there....

[oldcorollas]

if the ECU is limiting to 22psi, then the rest of the motor needs to be doen for 9500-10,000rpm.. on boost...

might be cheaper in the end to get a new ECU, run more boost at a lower rpm, and nto grenade it?

[boxh34d]

if the ECU is limiting to 22psi, then the rest of the motor needs to be doen for 9500-10,000rpm.. on boost...

might be cheaper in the end to get a new ECU, run more boost at a lower rpm, and nto grenade it?

That would be my thought.

[The Count]

280rwkw is no fun unless u own a tyre yard or are sponsored by one esspecially in a car thats made for a 1.6 is going to be pretty light
what about a gearbox to handle that sorta power ??? and clutch brakes etc

[Shifty]

1100kg including driver, W58 box, big tailshaft, G-series LSD. Brakes have been upgraded from four-wheel drums to four-wheel discs, and if/when the turbo swap takes place I'll be upgrading the front brakes further.

I decided on 260-280 as a nice target based on a combination of (a) what I thought was achievable from a 4AGE (b) my general experience on how much power is 'too much' (c) a power figure that is more than the majority of people are achieving with these engines. My current car (CA18DET 120Y) is getting retuned shortly and should hopefully be up around the 240rwkw mark (previously around 190rwkw with 380hp turbo at 15psi, hoping for around 240rwkw from new turbo at 20psi) so perhaps when I get that back on the road I will revise my intentions.

I do like the idea of making max power on minimum boost through an efficient and safe setup. A mate has 220rwkw from a 2876r on his SR20DET at 15psi... applying basic maths to take that from 2.0lt/15psi to 1.6lt/22psi that comes out to 258rwkw assuming everything else is equal (eg. similarly efficient engines, similar rev limit, etc). Certainly suggests the turbo is close to the mark, perhaps a touch small for the outright power goals but certainly a good mix of power without going too big and completely killing response.

I might also consider a 3SGTE but to be honest they seem like a real prick of a thing to work with.

PS: That you Danny? If so then long time no speak!

[Fantapants]

im not as expeiranced as others here with these power levels, but going of what has worked for others previously, i would suggest at least a bigport head.... smalls are too small for this sorta power imo.

or a blacktop 20v head.

retaining vvt will also improve turbo response, and the blacktop provides the best starting point for porting.

again, talk to bazda... his 7a is MORE than proven i would say, and more than driveable at 300plus fwkw.....

just my 2cents shifty

[mr2mark]

The 2876 is a terribly mismatched turbo, best indicator of this is the turbine efficiency as posted on garrett website. Lots of info on mr2oc about this and the consensus on the 2876 seems to be that the only reason they exist is to be a drop in replacement for t2 flanged engines like your friends sr20.

A (t3) 3071 should make more power with less lag and at less boost on a 4ag or your friends sr20. t2 versions of 3071 and 3076 exist and are are progressively worse than the 2876.

[jono]

my mate has an unopened small port turbo (GZE) with 1000cc injectors running E85 making 240rwkw with a Disco Potato (in a ke20, probably around 1100kg with driver too). More in it too apparently.