Engineers Certificate carby 20v

[Dogie456]

Hi Guys,

Hy first post here and i have been searching, and trying to find an answer for a while now but couldn't find what i was looking for so i was hoping someone could answer my questions.

From reading through the NSW RTA p-plate restrictions i have concluded i cant do any performance enhancing modifications to my vehicle which require an engineers certificate. I have always wanted an ae71 with a 4age in it and recently one came up for sale for a good price. but as i am losing my licence (no hooning offeces) i want to make sure my car is as legal as possible (to a certain extent). When reading through the RTA page for modifying vehicles it states:

‘Owner certified’minor modifications which can be accepted for registration purposes without formal certification.'
and it goes on to say:
'Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves, oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate correctly).'

Q1. So from this i concluded i could drop a 4age into an ae71 but need to run the standard ae71 carby, exhaust, etc. Is this right?

Q2. Now this has got me wondering what performance modifications require an engineers certificate and which don't, as i have never heard of someone needing to engineer larger cams before or changing carbs to weber's

Q3. Would the standard intake manifold off a 4ac bolt up to a 4age 20v head?

Q4. What else do i need to convert an ae71 4age 20v back to carby apart from low pressure fuel pump, hyperpack ignition, the standard carby, and manifold?

Thanks in advance
Thorsten

[thechuckster]

rule of thumb: car with replacement engine has to meet the emissions standards of the new engine. ergo, if you use an EFI engine, you have to keep it EFI.


Q1: no, you'd have to use the fuel and intake systems from the newer motor

Q2: In your case to revert an EFI model to carb would result in it not being able to meet the ADRs of the engine, hence you could never engineer it. Strictly speaking, any change that might affect compliance with an engine's ADRs should be engineered and/or tested - but in reality, unless you change the induction somehow (carb to efi, add a turbo, etc) or swap the whole engine, no one gives a rats ass unless you encounter a RTA inspector with a rat up his/her arse and a desire to have you spend money on emissions testing.

Q3: no - i suggest you compare the intake manifold gaskets from both engines. (rockauto.com has pics for just about every item in their catalog. If you can identify a model that uses thesemotors, then you can probably find a pic of an item.)

Q4: see 1

[banana_socks]

^^ Yup, when they say you must retain all the stock equipment, they are referring to the engine that you are swapping in, so you'd need to run the stock EFI setup, ECU, etc. I know someone in SA who was able to get a 4AGE swap through without any engineering as with the correct parts in can be bolted straight in. However I don't think you would get this through as P plate legal because you are increasing the power of the engine, even if its not by a huge amount. Checking this should be your first priority.

[Dogie456]

Thanks for the speedy responses. Just to be 100% sure i might contact the rta because in their rules they don't make it clear if they are referring to the cars emission gear or the new engines emission gear.
also banana_socks here are the p-plate restrictions for nsw:

The prohibited vehicle condition restricts provisional (P1 and P2) drivers from driving certain high performance vehicles. The condition applies to provisional licences issued on or after 11 July 2005. The scheme aims to prohibit young driver access to vehicles that are overrepresented in young driver crashes.

Prohibited vehicles are those with:

Eight or more cylinders (except diesel).
A turbocharged engine (except diesel).
A supercharged engine (except diesel).
Engine performance modifications that require an engineers' certificate.
Certain high performance six cylinder engine vehicles or other vehicles as described in the publication Novice Drivers - High Performance Vehicle Restrictions.

so as long as the engine swap doesn't require an engineers certificate i can legaly have a 20v in an ae71 on my P's

[TERRA Operative]

You can drive an AE101 GT-Apex or an AE111 BZ-R or BZ-G Levin on your P plates (they came with the silvertop and blacktop respectively) so as long as the swap doesn't need a cert ( the cars have the same capacity, same model number, etc which makes it look good) then without looking closer to the details, I don't see why not.

[banana_socks]

It differs a lot from state to state, so best to check with your local RTA. But I was under the impression that if the engine you were planning to swap in was not available as an option for that chassis, and was of greater power output, then it was considered a performance swap and not allowed for P platers. Even if its not going to be super fast, they prefer blanket rules.

[river]

Hi,

A 4A-GE into an AE71 is a performance enhancement. They could well ping you on that, as technically they can request an engineers certificate, considering the extra power of the 4age over the 4ac, as well as the mods done to convert to efi.

And yes, you need to keep the efi kit on the car 'cos if you are engineered the carbs wont meet the emission standards.

seeyuzz
river

[Hiro]

Aren't emission standards to the year of the car, not the year of the engine? This is what stops people putting older engines into newer cars, but the reverse should be perfectly fine (would still need certificate as you would be almost doubling the power of the engine).

[masterofsinanju]

Aren't emission standards to the year of the car, not the year of the engine? This is what stops people putting older engines into newer cars, but the reverse should be perfectly fine (would still need certificate as you would be almost doubling the power of the engine).

It is effectively whichever is the higher standard. SO older engine in newer car would still need to meet ADRs for the newer age. Newer engine in older car means meeting ADR's applicable to the year of manufatcure of the engine. Yes, it appears, that the RTA can have its cake AND eat it too.

Has anyone on here put an older engine on a newer car (not sure why you would but maybe circumstances could come up making this a preferable option)?

I'm not aware of the requirements relating to engineering being related to power (other than mods that involve turbo installations and increase capacity), but I'm old and not concerned about such things that do not apply to me.

[Joshstix]

I'm pretty sure there is a clause in the NSW rules about self certifying that states no more than 15% capacity or power increase.

You could possibly try and convince someone it's just a head swap on the old 4AC block but that would open a whole other can of worms if it came down to it.

[RONA]

Josh is correct the power clause would make engineering necessary thus making the mod illegal for a P-Plater, 20v would put out close to twice the power of the standard 4ac so you are well and truly screwed on that point. The below URL doesn't necessarily call out the power clause but you does have items around assessing the suitability of standard components ie brakes and suspension if the power output is increased. Carby 20v would be a flat out no as you cannot alter the emissions of the replacement engine unless you wanted to get it engineered to prove it still met all the necessary ADRs from when the 20v was released.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrati...s_nov_2007.pdf

[oldcorollas]

that the 20V was never released as an engine in any model in Aus, is also a problem,as it MUST be engineered, if nothing else to prove it meets aussie emissions standards.. carby = no.

just toe the line like normal people... the more people abuse rules, the worse they get

[litldv8]

Aren't emission standards to the year of the car, not the year of the engine? This is what stops people putting older engines into newer cars, but the reverse should be perfectly fine (would still need certificate as you would be almost doubling the power of the engine).

emissions standards are applicable both ways.

the motor you fit must exceed the emmission standard of the car originally BUT still work as it would in in the vehicle it came from

this is why i could fit a 1992 1uz in my 2000 hilux

no cat in it to start with - now does.

both efi

[litldv8]

that the 20V was never released as an engine in any model in Aus, is also a problem,as it MUST be engineered, if nothing else to prove it meets aussie emissions standards.. carby = no.

just toe the line like normal people... the more people abuse rules, the worse they get

how many more years until you dont have a p plate?
how many more will you add getting caught and loosing your licence and having to start again?


plenty of years to have fun with cars after you get a open licence - just put with the rules can be shit but the consequences are worse.
god that sounds like a old man ramble!!
neil